Bug#674853: winbind should depend on libpam-winbind and libnss-winbind for wheezy

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 12:04:37PM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:

severity 674853 important
thanks

Quoting Adrian Bunk ():
> Package: winbind
> Version: 2:3.6.5-3
> Severity: serious
>
> Common practice in Debian is that when functionality got split out
> of one package, that package will depend in the next stable release
> on the new packages to avoid breakages on upgrades.

Which is why winbind *Recommends* libpam-winbind and libnss-winbind.

As we already said ad libitum hereor therewe are not here to
rescue people who shoot in one's own foot by not installing
Recommends.

If "not installing Recommends" is considered "shoot in one's own foot",
doesn't that imply that Recommends should be converted to Depends?

Either not installing Recommends (which is a *global* setting in Debian)
is considered a valid setup through all of Debian, or it is anyway
considered broken. In the latter case there would be no reason against
changing the Recommends to Depends...

So, sorry but no.

I'm very tempted to close this bug report and will just downgrade it
as of now.I'm leaving it off to Steve to close it. I'm certain he
agrees with me, here, and the best way for him to say so is probably
by closing the bug report.

cu
Adrian


"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed




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# It seems that Christian missed to Cc control@, so copying the instructions
# here.
severity 674853 important
thanks

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 08:48:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:

Either not installing Recommends (which is a *global* setting in Debian)
is considered a valid setup through all of Debian, or it is anyway
considered broken. In the latter case there would be no reason against
changing the Recommends to Depends...

I'm sorry that I have to quote policy to you:

| Recommends
|
| This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
|
| The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
| with this one in all but unusual installations.

It's pretty clear that winbind can be used usefully without those two packages
(e.g. for RADIUS auth against Active Directory), but that, as you said, they
should be there in usual installations. That's the definition of recommends.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern



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On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 08:30:25PM +0200, Philipp Kern wrote:

...
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 08:48:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Either not installing Recommends (which is a *global* setting in Debian)
> is considered a valid setup through all of Debian, or it is anyway
> considered broken. In the latter case there would be no reason against
> changing the Recommends to Depends...

I'm sorry that I have to quote policy to you:

| Recommends
|
| This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
|
| The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
| with this one in all but unusual installations.

It's pretty clear that winbind can be used usefully without those two packages
(e.g. for RADIUS auth against Active Directory), but that, as you said, they
should be there in usual installations. That's the definition of recommends.

I am not objecting against that in general.

What I am talking about is the special case of how to ensure that
everyone who had these installed in squeeze (due to them being part
of winbind) will also have them installed in wheezy after upgrading.

Traditionally, when a package was split out of another package in
Debian, there is a dependency until the next release to minimize
the risk of upgrade breakages.

It is clear that this is only a short-term dependency, and for wheezy+1
the dependency will be demoted to a Suggests or Recommends.

Debian always had a reputation for working upgraded (e.g. think back to
the libc5->libc6 transition), and IMHO it is important that Debian will
continue to do everything possible to avoid upgrade breakages.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern

cu
Adrian


"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed




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On 05/28/2012 07:48 PM, Adrian Bunk wrote:

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 12:04:37PM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:

severity 674853 important
thanks

Quoting Adrian Bunk ():

Package: winbind
Version: 2:3.6.5-3
Severity: serious

Common practice in Debian is that when functionality got split out
of one package, that package will depend in the next stable release
on the new packages to avoid breakages on upgrades.

Which is why winbind *Recommends* libpam-winbind and libnss-winbind.

As we already said ad libitum hereor therewe are not here to
rescue people who shoot in one's own foot by not installing
Recommends.

If "not installing Recommends" is considered "shoot in one's own foot",
doesn't that imply that Recommends should be converted to Depends?

Either not installing Recommends (which is a *global* setting in Debian)
is considered a valid setup through all of Debian, or it is anyway
considered broken. In the latter case there would be no reason against
changing the Recommends to Depends...

So, sorry but no.

On the contrary, if one chooses to not install Recommends one has to
take the consequences of not having everything that is usually needed
installed. How one does that is up to oneself and not to the
distribution at large. So it's actually "not installing Recommends, but
not taking necessay measures to keep things working neither" is
considered "shoot in one's own foot".

Cheers

Luk



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On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 10:45:40PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
[ winbind only recommending libpam-winbind and libnss-winbind ]

What I am talking about is the special case of how to ensure that
everyone who had these installed in squeeze (due to them being part
of winbind) will also have them installed in wheezy after upgrading.

The definition of recommends implies that you should opt out of them only in a
concious way and I don't see a way around reviewing missing recommends on
upgrade. We should probably mention the fact that we expect users to review
them in the release notes / upgrade instructions, though, if it isn't already.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern






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