Updating a clone without recloning?

"Bill in Co" wrote in message
news:

I'm wondering if it is possible to update a bootable clone with some
file update copying, but without potentially impacting it's
"bootability".

Let me explain:

Suppose we make a clone of the main system drive, which may or may not
have several partitions, but never actually plug it in as the boot
drive to "initialize" it. (This step is apparently not *always*
required with all cloning programs (and apparently not required using
Acronis to make the clone).

OK. So that's fine and dandy so far. And the clone is just sitting
on the shelf as a backup.

Now let's suppose we just want to update it with just a few updated
personal and non system files, rather than go through the whole
cloning process all over again (which takes considerable time)

IF we now connect this cloned drive as an external drive (through
either USB or SATA connectors) and then boot up in windows with it in
(in addition to the normal boot drive), will that mess anythin up,
like its future bootability (since the first time its being used here
is when it is connected as an external secondary drive (and is NOT the
boot drive)?

That's the key question here. Because if doing so will mess up the
clone, then one can't simply update the clone, as I've suggested (and
one would always have to make a brand new clone).

I think this whole thing has to do with the active partition byte
being set correctly, and not being potentially reset, by doing such a
thing.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Or can clarify this for me?

As you mentioned, the drive (actually a partition on the drive) has to
be marked Active in order to boot. Usually when you make a clone, you
are replacing your old drive and at the beginning of the cloning
operation, so the clone is marked Active so it can boot. As long as all
you are adding or replacing are data files documents, pictures and
so forth, not system or program files... this will not affect the
ability of the clone to boot.

Attaching the clone to your computer as an external USB or eSata drive
(or as an internal second drive for that matter) won't change the Active
setting, any more than attaching a bootable drive from another computer
externally, or internally as a second or slave drive, will affect its
Active setting.

Just make sure if it is connected via USB or eSATA that you do NOT have
those interfaces selected in the BIOS setup as the first boot device or
before the internal hard drive, so they don't try to boot your system.
In other words, make sure your BIOS boot order is either hard drive
first, or CD/DVD first, hard drive second, and that USB and eSATA are
not listed or are listed after the hard drive.

In the case of a cloned drive being connected as an internal drive (PATA
or SATA), make sure the BIOS is still set to boot from your Primary hard
drive, not the second or slave drive.

Connecting an Active bootable drive from another computer to my computer
is something I do often, to copy some data off the drive for someone, or
to scan for malware on the drive while it is not booted. Your clone
should act the same way it is a bootable drive.
Glen Ventura
MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
CompTIA A+

"glee" wrote in message
news:js69g4$tc0$

As you mentioned, the drive (actually a partition on the drive) has to
be marked Active in order to boot. Usually when you make a clone, you
are replacing your old drive and at the beginning of the cloning
operation, so the clone is marked Active so it can boot.

That should read:
As you mentioned, the drive (actually a partition on the drive) has to
be marked Active in order to boot. Usually when you make a clone, you
are replacing your old drive, and at the beginning of the cloning
operation may be asked if you are switching the drives, so the clone is
marked Active so it can boot.

Glen Ventura
MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
CompTIA A+

glee wrote:

"Bill in Co" wrote in message
news:

I'm wondering if it is possible to update a bootable clone with some
file update copying, but without potentially impacting it's
"bootability".

Let me explain:

Suppose we make a clone of the main system drive, which may or may not
have several partitions, but never actually plug it in as the boot
drive to "initialize" it. (This step is apparently not *always*
required with all cloning programs (and apparently not required using
Acronis to make the clone).

OK. So that's fine and dandy so far. And the clone is just sitting
on the shelf as a backup.

Now let's suppose we just want to update it with just a few updated
personal and non system files, rather than go through the whole
cloning process all over again (which takes considerable time)

IF we now connect this cloned drive as an external drive (through
either USB or SATA connectors) and then boot up in windows with it in
(in addition to the normal boot drive), will that mess anythin up,
like its future bootability (since the first time its being used here
is when it is connected as an external secondary drive (and is NOT the
boot drive)?

That's the key question here. Because if doing so will mess up the
clone, then one can't simply update the clone, as I've suggested (and
one would always have to make a brand new clone).

I think this whole thing has to do with the active partition byte
being set correctly, and not being potentially reset, by doing such a
thing.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Or can clarify this for me?

<copied in your corrected text below:>

As you mentioned, the drive (actually a partition on the drive) has to be
marked Active in order to boot. Usually when you make a clone, you are
replacing your old drive, and at the beginning of the cloning operation
may be asked if you are switching the drives, so the clone is marked
Active so it can boot.

As long as all
you are adding or replacing are data files documents, pictures and
so forth, not system or program files... this will not affect the
ability of the clone to boot.

Well, when I made the clone with Acronis, I don't remember being asked if
I'd be switching the drives, but I'm pretty sure it set the flag, so that if
and when it was ever substituted, the flag would already be set and the
clone would be ready to go. (Otherwise I don't think it could ever work
(i.e. to replace the original and yet be bootable). What I do remember is
after I made the clone, it finished the operation and prompted to shut down
the system (which implies it didn't want both connected at a first time
reboot, which I guess makes sense).

More below...

Attaching the clone to your computer as an external USB or eSata drive
(or as an internal second drive for that matter) won't change the Active
setting, any more than attaching a bootable drive from another computer
externally, or internally as a second or slave drive, will affect its
Active setting.

That is good to know!

Just make sure if it is connected via USB or eSATA that you do NOT have
those interfaces selected in the BIOS setup as the first boot device or
before the internal hard drive, so they don't try to boot your system.
In other words, make sure your BIOS boot order is either hard drive
first, or CD/DVD first, hard drive second, and that USB and eSATA are
not listed or are listed after the hard drive.

In the case of a cloned drive being connected as an internal drive (PATA
or SATA), make sure the BIOS is still set to boot from your Primary hard
drive, not the second or slave drive.

I will have to check this. Hopefully it is as you said. Heck, it sure
SHOULD be that way! (why would it ever be reversed?)

Connecting an Active bootable drive from another computer to my computer
is something I do often, to copy some data off the drive for someone, or
to scan for malware on the drive while it is not booted. Your clone
should act the same way it is a bootable drive.

OK, so if I understand this Glen, the ONLY time there might (or would) be a
problem is IF the system ever assumed that the connected clone was THE drive
to boot up on at first boot (i.e. as the first bootable BIOS device). And
that THAT is the danger.

But then again, I don't see how that could ever happen (even with an
externally connected bootable drive), since normally the internal drives
would be listed as first priority in BIOS, right?

Wouldn't it be a pretty weird BIOS sequence to attempt to boot from an
external drive, assuming the main internal one (bootable) was already in
there? That seems to me to be a backwards sequence for BIOS to even
consider, but maybe it can happen?

However, IF the main bootable drive weren't also in the computer at the time
the other bootable external clone drive was connected, then I can see a
problem arising, if I understand this correctly.

"Bill in Co" wrote in message
news:

glee wrote:

"Bill in Co" wrote in message
news:

I'm wondering if it is possible to update a bootable clone with some
file update copying, but without potentially impacting it's
"bootability".

Let me explain:

Suppose we make a clone of the main system drive, which may or may not
have several partitions, but never actually plug it in as the boot
drive to "initialize" it. (This step is apparently not *always*
required with all cloning programs (and apparently not required using
Acronis to make the clone).

OK. So that's fine and dandy so far. And the clone is just sitting
on the shelf as a backup.

Now let's suppose we just want to update it with just a few updated
personal and non system files, rather than go through the whole
cloning process all over again (which takes considerable time)

IF we now connect this cloned drive as an external drive (through
either USB or SATA connectors) and then boot up in windows with it in
(in addition to the normal boot drive), will that mess anythin up,
like its future bootability (since the first time its being used here
is when it is connected as an external secondary drive (and is NOT the
boot drive)?

That's the key question here. Because if doing so will mess up the
clone, then one can't simply update the clone, as I've suggested (and
one would always have to make a brand new clone).

I think this whole thing has to do with the active partition byte
being set correctly, and not being potentially reset, by doing such a
thing.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Or can clarify this for me?

<copied in your corrected text below:>

As you mentioned, the drive (actually a partition on the drive) has to be
marked Active in order to boot. Usually when you make a clone, you are
replacing your old drive, and at the beginning of the cloning operation
may be asked if you are switching the drives, so the clone is marked
Active so it can boot.

As long as all
you are adding or replacing are data files documents, pictures and
so forth, not system or program files... this will not affect the
ability of the clone to boot.

Well, when I made the clone with Acronis, I don't remember being asked if
I'd be switching the drives, but I'm pretty sure it set the flag, so that
if and when it was ever substituted, the flag would already be set and the
clone would be ready to go. (Otherwise I don't think it could ever work
(i.e. to replace the original and yet be bootable). What I do remember is
after I made the clone, it finished the operation and prompted to shut
down the system (which implies it didn't want both connected at a first
time reboot, which I guess makes sense).

More below...

Attaching the clone to your computer as an external USB or eSata drive
(or as an internal second drive for that matter) won't change the Active
setting, any more than attaching a bootable drive from another computer
externally, or internally as a second or slave drive, will affect its
Active setting.

That is good to know!

Just make sure if it is connected via USB or eSATA that you do NOT have
those interfaces selected in the BIOS setup as the first boot device or
before the internal hard drive, so they don't try to boot your system.
In other words, make sure your BIOS boot order is either hard drive
first, or CD/DVD first, hard drive second, and that USB and eSATA are
not listed or are listed after the hard drive.

In the case of a cloned drive being connected as an internal drive (PATA
or SATA), make sure the BIOS is still set to boot from your Primary hard
drive, not the second or slave drive.

I will have to check this. Hopefully it is as you said. Heck, it sure
SHOULD be that way! (why would it ever be reversed?)

Connecting an Active bootable drive from another computer to my computer
is something I do often, to copy some data off the drive for someone, or
to scan for malware on the drive while it is not booted. Your clone
should act the same way it is a bootable drive.

OK, so if I understand this Glen, the ONLY time there might (or would) be
a problem is IF the system ever assumed that the connected clone was THE
drive to boot up on at first boot (i.e. as the first bootable BIOS
device). And that THAT is the danger.

But then again, I don't see how that could ever happen (even with an
externally connected bootable drive), since normally the internal drives
would be listed as first priority in BIOS, right?

Wouldn't it be a pretty weird BIOS sequence to attempt to boot from an
external drive, assuming the main internal one (bootable) was already in
there? That seems to me to be a backwards sequence for BIOS to even
consider, but maybe it can happen?

However, IF the main bootable drive weren't also in the computer at the
time the other bootable external clone drive was connected, then I can see
a problem arising, if I understand this correctly.

Most systems I've worked on had a floppy drive (on older systems) or CD/DVD
drive as the first boot device. Then the second device was usually the
internal HDD. That could always be changed, and some of the options were
External USB/eSATA/Firewire Device (could be a HDD or flash drive), and Boot
from LAN. I would think it would be very unusual to have your internal HDD
set as the the first boot device unless you set it that way.
SC Tom

On 6/23/2012 23:46, Bill in Co wrote:

I'm wondering if it is possible to update a bootable clone with some file
update copying, but without potentially impacting it's "bootability".

Let me explain:

Suppose we make a clone of the main system drive, which may or may not have
several partitions, but never actually plug it in as the boot drive to
"initialize" it. (This step is apparently not *always* required with all
cloning programs (and apparently not required using Acronis to make the
clone).

OK. So that's fine and dandy so far. And the clone is just sitting on the
shelf as a backup.

Now let's suppose we just want to update it with just a few updated personal
and non system files, rather than go through the whole cloning process all
over again (which takes considerable time)

IF we now connect this cloned drive as an external drive (through either USB
or SATA connectors) and then boot up in windows with it in (in addition to
the normal boot drive), will that mess anythin up, like its future
bootability (since the first time its being used here is when it is
connected as an external secondary drive (and is NOT the boot drive)?

That's the key question here. Because if doing so will mess up the clone,
then one can't simply update the clone, as I've suggested (and one would
always have to make a brand new clone).

I think this whole thing has to do with the active partition byte being set
correctly, and not being potentially reset, by doing such a thing.

Windows doesn't mind having a partition set active on non-boot drives.
However if your clone has the same disk signature as the original, to
avoid conflict, Windows will change the signature of the currently
non-booting clone. That in effect could render the clone unable to boot
into Windows.

I say "could" because it depends on how Acronis handles the disk
signature when cloning. This page http://kb.acronis.com/content/6323
suggest that you have to tell Acronis specifically to copy the sig.

XP will boot with a blank sig, and fix it (the sig).
XP will boot with an incorrect sig, and fix that.
XP will not boot if its sig matches a sig in the registry of a
previously online non-booting volume.

It gets even hairier for Vista and later.
http://blogs.technet.com/b/markruss...63572.aspx